Iran
Sam Seder: Listen, I-I mean, I-I think no one listening to this program would disagree on that, and do you feel, I mean, do you feel that we're making any strides in that way? I mean, i-i-it- You know, after a week when the Senate refuses to restore Habeas Corpus- after a week where it refuses to pass the Webb Amendment or even allow for a vote on the Webb Amendment, I mean, are, are, have we taken any steps, positive steps?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I don't think we have in terms of restoring U.S. legitimacy. I think this administration has, has got enough control of the Senate to force its plans and force its programs onto the American Congress and onto the American people. And the administration just wants to slide out of office without really coming to grips with the problems.
Sam Seder: And one of those problems of course is Iraq. I want to get your take on the Petreaus report, the Crocker report. Was it even relevant? I mean, it does appear to have made any difference whatsoever in terms of the way that this war is being waged.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think the report changed American public opinion, but I think we have to be very careful in thinking about this. Iraq is dynamic. The situation in 2006 is not the same situation that we have today, and the situation in 2008 won't be the same as it was in 2007. What's happening is ethnic cleansing has continued. The militias have gained a tighter grip on all of the activities in the South, and the Sunni tribes have banded together with some encouragement from allies like Saudi Arabia and Jordan to be prepared to put up a strong resistance should the Iranian-backed Shia militia encroach on their areas. So, what we're seeing is the preparation for more profound a civil conflict.
Sam Seder: A-and so what do you think- I mean, let's assume for the moment that there will be no substantial change in policy as long as George Bush is President. What do you believe the next President should do?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think we're going to have to go over there and talk to all of the countries in the region. Much of the mischief here is driven by Iran's desires to get a grip on Iraq, and they've adroitly played off all sides against the other. And of course all sides are using Iran. Iran's a source of, of financial assistance. It's a sort of, a source of cultural support. It's a source of military assistance and training. Iran is there and Iran wants a friendly Iraq. Iran's been happy to have the United States intervene to destroy Saddam Hussein, to take out the Ba'athists, to eliminate the old Iraqi military, but Iran wants to make sure that the new Iraq that emerges is a very close and dependent ally on Iran. That's what's going on.
Sam Seder: So, so, what, you're suggesting that the, that the reason why this is a, this has, there is so much fighting and there's so much ethnic cleansing is a function of Iran?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely, in part. In part there's some hatreds there. But Iran has managed to ingratiate itself and be used by all parties, and it is keeping the fighting going. It's able to more or less put in resources or take them out at will.
Sam Seder: And w-what type of resources they- you're talking simply about money or are you taking about-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it's a broad political, economic, cultural and, and military offensive by Iran that we don't see. It's the backing for Sistani and the, and the Supreme Council of the, of, of the I-Iraqi Revolution, the SKIRI militia.
Sam Seder: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's aid and comfort to Muqtada Al Sadr and his army. It's support for putting the lights back on in various places in the South. They're sending engineers in to work on power systems, and they're bringing people out to have operations and receive medical support. I'm sure there are many, many Iraqis going to university in Iran. So, there's a lot of assistance being plied back and forth across the border in many different ways, and they're much closer to this culture than we are. It's much, much easier for them. So, we can't deal with the problem in Iraq without taking recognition of Iran.
Sam Seder: And so, what're suggesting that we do in, in regards to-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I would pull out two brigades right now just to tell the Iraqis they can't rely on the U.S. to stay there indefinitely while they don't solve their issues. But then I would be sending a very high powered diplomatic team to the region, something like Ambassador Holbrooke and his team that, that worked the Balkan problem in 1999, 1995, representative of the White House and the Pentagon and the State Department and able to deal with all of the leaders in the region, not just at the head of government level, but at other levels as appropriate.
Sam Seder: And so, how many military personnel are we talking about with two brigades?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, maybe eight or ten thousand.
San Seder: And, and, and then, and then are you- So, you're saying that today.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I'm saying that today. I'm saying that the- See we-
Sam Seder: What's the goal, I guess is question.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We've got it a little bit wrong in many respects. I've tried to explain to the Democratic Congressional leadership for two years that they should not be focusing on troops. They should be focusing on the strategy and the policies. It's not about pulling the troops out. It's about getting the strategies and the policies right. The administration doesn't have it right. It won't talk to Iran. It won't set up a regional policy. And therefore, this problem has worsened, and we're facing the, the imminence of Iranian nuclear power. So, I think, I think we got to be smarter than simply saying, 'We don't like this Bush's war. Pull the troops out.' That's not going to work, because we don't have control of the Senate. But even if it did, it doesn't address the larger problem of the U.S. engagement in the area afterwards.
Sam Seder: And, and w-what should be the function of that engagement?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, what we need to do is we need to stabilized the region. President Bush in 2003 said, "Stability in the Middle East is no longer enough." Well, he was wrong. I think it is enough, at least for now. We'll let the countries in the region pick their own forms of government. We'll not violate their borders, and in turn we'll ask them not to violate our borders. And eventually democracy will emerge as it must, but at its own pace. You can't force democratic reforms on people.
Sam Seder: Well, General, I hope you're right. I am a little bit more skeptical about that. It sounds to me like we're talking about decades of involvement.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, we've been involved for decades.
