NPR: News & Notes with Ed Gordon

Ferai Chideya's full interview this morning with General Clark can be listened to or read here.

Here are some clips:

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: First, for humanitarian reasons and secondly, for reasons of regional stability and ultimately, even for matters of energy. What we don't need is, we don't need another crisis where the West stands by as hundreds of thousands of people have died. Already the casualty toll from Darfur is estimated to be 300,000 and rather than the instability easing off, it's actually deepened with longer cross-border operations back and forth across the border between Sudan and Chad and greater challenges throughout the region for stability.

Ferai Chideya: By energy, you mean that we have a stake in the region's fossil fuels.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think the whole world has a stake in this. Where we are right now is in a worldwide energy, integrated energy market. Oil that's taken from one place and consumed in another place is, in economic terms, fungible, and not technically maybe, every oil's a little bit different, but it's a world market. So, a shortage that results from a supply interruption in, in Nigeria or somewhere in Africa is just as significant as a supply interruption, let's say, in the Middle East or off the coast of Texas, because the whole market is ultimately affected by this.

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Ferai Chideya: You mentioned humanitarian tragedy. We recently had on Paul Rusesabagina who is the gentleman whose life is portrayed in the movie, 'Hotel Rwanda', and he said that in Darfur, what was called during the Holocaust "genocide, never again" has become "again and again and again". That's a pretty grim warning.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think it's a very grim warning, and in every case, there are specific matters that are different than every other case. There are always competing explanations. There are always assurances that it is different this time, that for some reason it's not going to expand or whatever. But the point it, these episodes have a lot in common. This is war by proxy. It's war underneath the visibility of the major powers. If they had formed up an army and moved in with tanks and artillery and 200,000 troops, it would've gotten worldwide attention in all probability. They don't have those kinds of resources, and they proved they don't need them, the Sudanese I'm talking about. What they are able to do is move out populations, intimidate whole regions of a country and throw a neighboring country into turmoil by supporting groups of irregular fighters, the so-called Janjaweed. And these, assisted by helicopters and other assets from the Sudanese forces, have been very effective in carrying out a policy of ethnic cleansing.

Ferai Chideya: But the Khartoum government says, or claims, that it is not endorsing the actions of the Janjaweed.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, it, it claims that, but the fact is that we know that Khartoum's military assets have been engaged. We know that these people are connected to the government in Khartoum. It's that simple and clear-cut.

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Ferai Chideya: Now the US has a complicated relationship with Sudan. We have mentioned energy, but also we've received valuable information from their Intelligence Minister, who was once Bin Ladin's personal handler and is considered an architect of the campaign in Darfur. Are we, as some reports would allege, a long Los Angeles Times series for example, enabling a genocide in exchange for intelligence in the war on terror?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I suspect that the intelligence is of some utility, but I also believe that we've got to be very careful not to buy off on and endorse regimes like this just because they'll provide intelligence. There's no telling how valuable the intelligence really is. We don't know what part of it is accurate, what's inaccurate, and more importantly, we don't know that we're getting all that could be gotten. So, in this case I think the intelligence is, is certainly useful, but if the government of Sudan wants to remain a government in the world in good standing, then it's got to obey international law. It hasn't done that.

Ferai Chideya: International law often comes down to the United Nations. Now Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice recently called for an increased UN presence in Sudan, Particularly in Darfur, and the House, here in the US, recently passed a bill calling for action in Darfur and economic sanctions. Is that enough, are these rumblings enough, to make something happen?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I don't think it is enough, because without a stronger international presence along the border, without US troops there to bring this mission home to world opinion, we won't have the leverage to stop the government of Sudan.

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